How I miss the erudite if unenlightened Barnum's Baileywick, who would go on at length to justify his views and usually attempt to address criticisms.
For some left-tilted bloggers, serious debate apparently means that their views are off-limits for criticism.
"Fran" over at a blog called "Ramblings" had rambled on about how the United States should make things right by impeaching Bush and withdrawing from Iraq. Assured of a case for impeachment parallel to that of clueless presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich, I attempted to satisfy my curiosity about how one would reason that things would be made right by a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq.
I'm going to condense the exchange down quite a bit.
Bryan: What, iyo, is "what is right" and what would correct the situation?I believe I detect some reluctance on behalf of these two to deal with potential problems for their foreign policy prescriptions. I think that reluctance manifested itself in the bogus suggestion that I was engaging in personal attacks. It seems as though Fran considers an attack on her position as an attack on her person.
Fran: What is right, imo, would be to utilize the Justice System, and prosecute the Executive branch (ie Bush & Cheney), via the Impeachment process, for high crimes- specifically bringing this country to war under false pretenses.
Bryan: Okay, let's say that you impeach the whole rotten lot. Off to prison they go for as long as you like.
Do you want an immediate U.S. pullout from Iraq despite the fact that the current government wants us there? Is that government an illegal government despite its recognition by the UN?
Fran: Immediate U.S. troop pullout from Iraq - YES!
Let an international Peacekeeping group assist after our exit.
Bryan: Uh, Fran, the only other nations willing to go to Iraq were already part of the coalition and most of them are either leaving or preparing to leave. What makes you think they'll send enough troops to do one iota of good?
The only nation that is likely to have real interest in sending a peacekeeping force into Iraq is Iran (not that Iraq would accept it).
Bryan: I should ask why you think the U.S. should withdraw if you think that peacekeeping assistance is needed.
D. K. Raed: I thought about the above scenario during the '04 election. My conclusion was, with new leadership, we could approach the int'l community, through the UN, and literally apologize for the grevious errors commmited by the (what I thought would be) disgraced prior regime. I still think that is the way to start. The key is new leadership here that will stand up & say it was wrong, we shouldn't have rushed to war & then go about the hard work of repairing our country's int'l relationships.
Fran: The people of Iraq do not want the US troops there. In 5 years, time, things have not improved.
If Iraqis wan(t) assistance they can choose whomever they want. It is not up to the US to make such decisions.
Bryan: Fran, a majority of Iraqis in the almost-famous BBC poll from this summer wanted U.S. troops to stay at least for a time (it varied with the group how long and why).
Now you want to get out of Iraq and let Iraq manage itself. I thought you felt that peacekeeping was needed? Have you changed your mind?
What if Iraq manages itself like Sudan manages itself? Is that OK with you?
Bryan: Can you offer me so much as one historical example of a national apology making a significant difference in the carrying out of foreign policy?
D. K. Raed: B your carefully carfted "questions" are masterful efforts to engage in dialogue on your terms. No example given would satisfy your definition of "apology", "national", "significant", "difference" or "foreign".
Bryan: Is that your way of saying you can't think of any example?
Fran: Bryon: I'm all for serious debate & opposing views.
But I will say I won't allow personal attacks or the snarky tone/direction your posts are going.
Consider this final notice.
(condensed commentary from Ramblings)
Given my suspicions, I decided to post a followup that was as neutral as possible, without any hint of a personal attack. Not entirely to my surprise, Fran appears to have deleted it shortly after I posted. Through the magic of screen capture, however, I can show you what Fran did not want you to see!
click to enlarge.
Here's how that section of the page looks after Fran the censor is done with it:
Now you see it. Now you don't. Cute, Fran! I'd love to hear what part of it you found childish or insulting.
Update:
Now D. K. is talking in code back at "Ramblings" in reference to this post.
Fran has made herself a comic figure, certainly, with her management of her blog's commentary. As for the opinions you two express, I can let my readers judge the quality. They get to read both sides here (and/or I'll refer them offsite).
*****
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